Nero Vision - Lines When I Scale Videos?

[Metalhead1987]

Hi everyone, I've been using Nero Vision since 2004, but up until recently I've been having terrible problems..
I have the latest version of Nero Vision, and for some reason, every time I scale the videos that I edit, I get these ugly lines during playback.
They're only noticeable on some scenes, mainly when it's dark.. But when I burn the videos I've scaled and edited off to DVD and watch them on my HD LCD TV, they're much more noticeable.
If I don't scale the videos the lines don't show up, but the main reason I'm using Nero Vision is to scale the videos..
If I encode the video through TMPGEnc and scale it with that, then encode the video with Nero Vision (putting the new audio on it) the lines are not there..
But I really rather just use Nero Vision alone and not have to use TMPGEnc..

Here are some screenshots of these annoying lines:






Does anybody have a solution for getting rid of this? It can't be only the copy of Nero Vision that I am using, because I have used 2 different copies on 2 different computers and the lines are still a problem.
I'm editing old metal videos that are very rare, some came off S-VHS sources recorded from Headbangers Ball in the 80's and 90's, the videos are impossible to find better quality.. they're not on DVD and never will be, some of the videos the bands themselves don't even have copies of..
So any help would be much appreciated.

[Metalhead1987]

Here's another example...


This is the original video (before I scaled it with Nero Vision):




And here's after it was scaled and encoded with Nero Vision:




To be able to see the lines, I turned the brightness up a bit, but their clearly there.

[wither]

My monitor is 1080p and I can't see what you're talking about. Perhaps you could use Paint or another program to annotate where the lines are.

The only thing I see is what I think they call moire patterns but no black lines.

Which version of Nero are you using?

[againploughman]

In his initial thread he states I have the latest version of Nero Vision and also old metal videos that are very rare, some came off S-VHS sources recorded.

I am sure that you have experienced the fluctuation of interlacing and the possible effects of viewing different types of recording.

I do not know if this has anything to do with it but the resolution of the images are rather low, I would expect that some form of distortion would occur if he viewed these images in High Resolution.



This post has been edited by againploughman: May 14 2012, 04:34 PM

[Metalhead1987]

Ok, here's another example:


This is the original video, before it was scaled with Nero Vision:





And here's the one that was scaled:




The lines going horizontal and vertical are very visible on the second screenshot, I get this with everything that I scale and it's very annoying.

[wither]

againploughman- I would appreciate it if you would let him answer my question.

metalhead1987- What version of Nero Vision are you using- 10.........? Are you scaling these up or down? I'm thinking the resolution of these files would be pretty low and, if you're trying to change it, you could get a number of effects. Could you cut one to less than 400 Mb and upload it to hotfile.com and post the first link it provides here?

Nice article about Motley Crue in Goldmine this month.

[Mister_M]

I checked it on two monitors (one of them with IPS-Panel and a wide gamut). And if I'm honest, I still couldn't find any big differences. I also "photoshopped" it and brightened both pics. The only thing I could find were some compression artifacts...

Could you mark those lines in the picture or upload a small video sample to a file hoster?

My next question: Why do you scale those videos??? I assume, you want to create a PAL-DVD. Then you could leave the resolution at 768x576, which is fully PAL-compliant (it's the PAL resolution in quarter pixel (1:1) ratio). The resolution of 720x540 neither really belongs to PAL nor to NTSC and isn't really suitable for creating DVDs.

@ wither: When I'm taking a look at those images, I assume he wants to convert old VHS-videos to DVD. VHS has a "resolution", that is comparable with a digital video resolution of 352x288. So he upscales those videos.

[wither]

Hi Mister_M, you pretty much asked the same questions as I did except I didn't ask him why he's scaling them. Yes, something like the 355x is what I was thinking of. Pretty low.

About the only way I can tell something is happening in the last two posted pictures is that, in the first one, you can see the persons hand near his face but you can't see that in the second one.

[Mister_M]

About the only way I can tell something is happening in the last two posted pictures is that, in the first one, you can see the persons hand near his face but you can't see that in the second one.

Because it's not the same frame... Would have been better. ;)

[wither]

That's what I thought and originally was going to mention but I deleted that comment because I thought the black lines he is talking about made it appear to be a different frame. I asked him to upload a portion of a file and tell me which version of Vision he is using so I could try to reproduce the problem.

[Metalhead1987]

Ok, I'm using the latest version of nero as I mentioned in my first post, 11.2.10300.0.0, so I'm using Nero Vision 10.
This has nothing to do with PAL or NTSC converting, I have converted movies and the movies have the lines, I can notice them of 3 different monitors, and I defiantly notice them on my 61" Hitachi bigscreen.
When I scale the video I usually scale both up and down, someone asked why I scale them, I'm getting rid of the ugly VHS line at the bottom and the black empty spaces on the sides so they look much better.
I know it has nothing to do with PAL or NTSC, I convert both PAL and NTSC formats and I only convert them to NTSC.. so that means I've converted more NTSC to NTSC stuff than PAL to NTSC.
I'm uploading a trailer for a horror movie that I converted, it's plagued with the lines. I can see them on every TV that I own, even the regular RCA jacks standard definition video.
I don't see how you guys aren't able to see these lines, maybe you aren't looking close enough? They're like BOXES.. They're white lines/boxes running across the screen. Everything I've scaled & cropped with Nero Vision has had this problem. I was using Nero 10 and updated to the latest version (thinking it was just my copy) but no, still the same problem. Then I tried it on a completely different computer with a new copy of Nero Vision, as soon as the video is scaled I get boxes. I'm going to draw (with white lines) where I can see the boxes, and let your eyes see if you can see the rest...
Perhaps you guys can see it during the video... You'd have to be blind not to see it during the video. It is alot worse during playback.
Just watch the trailer that I'm uploading.. it was done with Nero Vision, I had clipped the top and bottom because there was VHS artifacts on the cop and sides..

Here's the link to mediafire:

http://www.mediafire.com/?ozbbk7ib79isfs7

I'm not talking about black lines, they're like white lines/boxes during playback. And this isn't even the worst one, although it's pretty bad.

[Mister_M]

To what output format do you export the vob-files, if they don't need to be PAL or NTSC?

Need that information to be able to reproduce that problem.

[Metalhead1987]

They are all NTSC, 720x480 29.97fps 9329Kbps

[Mister_M]

I thought you scaled them to 720x540?

Did you just link your already scaled video? Or is it the source file? I'm confused, when you say, you scale it to NTSC (720x480 @ 29.97fps)... But why has your original video a resolution of 768x576 then? This is PAL! Did you use wrong settings (PAL) when capturing the video? Converting PAL to NTSC can also cause problems

EDIT: Just exported your file to an mpeg-2-file with a resolution of 720x544 and the same bit rate. No lines... Everything looks like it should.

[Metalhead1987]

The video I just uploaded was scaled, yes. The input was 720x480 and the output was also 720x480, both NTSC.
Can you see the boxes/lines in the video?

[Mister_M]

Please take a look at my last post. I was editing it when you posted your comment.

And no, I don't see anything unusual... It's typical analog video noise...

[Metalhead1987]

I don't see how you can't see the boxes... Yes on that one the input was PAL actually. I uploaded the wrong one, I also have a NTSC one though. I can clearly see the boxes during playback, although it has nothing to do with PAL to NTSC.

Turn the brightness up and you can clearly see what I'm talking about at the very beginning, and the original file was in fact NTSC. It was taken from an uncompressed .AVI file that was nearly 1GB. I just cropped the sides, top and bottom.

This post has been edited by Metalhead1987: May 14 2012, 08:43 PM

[Metalhead1987]

Okay... here's another comparison..

This is the original screenshot, .PNG file, Unscaled:





This is the SCALED shot, as you can see, if you look CLOSELY there are BOXES all over the screen:




The original input video was NTSC 720x480 and the output was the same, All I did was clip out the VHS line at the bottom and the black on the left side which is apparently visible..
That's why I scale the videos, to crop the sides and bottom..
But when I do it with Nero Vision, I get these boxes...
If you can't see the lines in the second screenshot... you need to have your eyes checked.. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just saying it's apparently there, and it's not a PAL to NTSC problem, this happens whenever I scale the video, any video.

[Mister_M]

Again, only small compression artifacts (in this case really small blocks, that are barely noticeable)... Nothing unusual. But already edited video samples are useless... For conversion testing I need an unedited source file sample.

... although it has nothing to do with PAL to NTSC...

It has something to do with PAL and NTSC.

When you capture NTSC source material to PAL, the resolution (720x480 -> 720x576) and the frame rate (29.97 fps -> 25 fps) will be changed during the capturing process. When you now convert the captured PAL-material back to NTSC, the resolution (720x576 -> 720x480) and frame rate (25 fps -> 29.97 fps) are changed again. And if you know the conversion process with lossy codecs, like mpeg-2, you also know, that there will be a quality loss with every conversion process, especially when you use different resolutions and frame rates all the time. Consumer software at that price category can't handle the conversion between those two standards very well... (Semi-)professional software, which costs about $600 and more, can handle those conversions better.

So, it is important, whether it's PAL or NTSC.

EDIT: I asked you to mark those blocks/lines... There's no real difference... I got the feeling, that we go round in circles at the moment. In the last pictures there are small compression artificats. As long as we don't know the video bit rate of your input files, we must assume, that those artifacts are caused by high compression during the encoding process because of fitting the content to DVD. I hope, you used "2-pass (High Quality)" as encoding method, and set the speed/quality setting to "100" in the recording format options.

[Metalhead1987]

Okay. please explain the screenshots I just added then if it's a PAL to NTSC problem. I know for sure that the source for that video is NTSC.